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Diederik Wissels (1960) &
Nathalie Loriers (1966)
are both the new generation of jazz pianists , composers , bandleaders and educators
who are quite active in Belgium and neighborhoods , and especially , they are a couple
! It's a real pleasure that we could have a nice conversation with them , two European
jazz musicians who speaks different languages and with different backgrounds and
personalities . For more information , please click their names .
CP : Let's first talk about when did you start to know jazz music
, and the first experience with jazz from United States .
Diederik : When I was a kid , the first American jazz I heard at home were
all the great names like Sidney Bechet , Duke Ellington ...etc. , but at the time
we heard tango , classical music as well , every kind of music , not only jazz .
For me there was no big difference of level between jazz and classical music , they
just came from everywhere , they are equally important .
Nathalie : For me my first contact with jazz wasn't American jazz , but Belgian
jazz , when I was 17 I went to my first jazz concert in Dinant
, it was Steve Houben with strings , kind of music between classical and jazz . Before
that I just heard a little Sidney Bechet , but no modern jazz , 'cause we didn't
have any records at home .
CP : So you mean that you really heard jazz after entering the conservatory
? Or you had some private lessons already previously ?
Nathalie : No , after listening to Steve Houben I went to the conservatory
for studying classical music , but there were some jazz seminars there , and Steve
Houben was giving lesson , so I attended and started to listen to Miles Davis .
Diederik : Maybe what helped me is my father plays pretty good jazz piano
too , so I learnt the chord , harmony in my house . I think a lot of people have
the same experience .
CP : It's like when you read all the interviews of American Jazz
musicians such as Kenny Garrett or Joe Lovano , they all started with "When
I was young , my father is a jazz musician , jazz records collector...... , so I
grew up with that ......" , but it seldom happened in my country .
Nathalie : My father was playing in a marching band (laughs) , yeah , that's
kind of family feel too .
CP : By the time you grew up , the Belgian jazz scene existed already
? and you had some famous players like Rene Thomas ? Toots Thielemans ?
Diederik : When I was about 14 to 15 , if we would like to take some lessons
, there were only some young jazz musicians out here , like Michel Herr , Charlie
Loos , those are really modern jazz musicians . But we still got "Old Schools"
, though I never knew Rene Thomas , he died in '75 , so did Bobby Jaspar , who died
in '63 , but of course , Toots was there , and Jacques Pelzer , Philip Catherine......
. But Michel Herr , Charlie Loos , Steve Houben and other contemporaries , who are
about 50 years old now , are the first generation of jazz musicians who played music
which was not bebop , and tried some different things .
CP : But the old schools of jazz like swing , big band , bebop were
still here ? Both went together in the same time ?
Diederik : Yes , even now , but not in the '70s , 'cause everything was finished
in '70s . That's always an interesting thing today , however , let's say there are
two kinds jazz here , one is historical , American traditional jazz , you have to
learn and know this , but there's jazz music of today , which was inspired by the
former as well , everybody was working on it since 1970's , and tried to find out
a personal , or you say European way of jazz .
CP : Then tell us why did you choose to go to US for studying in
Berklee College of Music in Boston ?
Diederik : Because at the time there was no jazz school here , and Berklee
was one of the best jazz schools in '70s , actually my parents didn't want me to
become a jazz musician , but they told me : if I want to do that , finish the study
in a good school , get good points , then find a good job immediately ! (Laughs)
So I went there , for me the Berklee years was fantastic , I was about 18 , just
right on the time to learn new things . The most important thing I learnt there is
how to study , how to work on things , etc . The teachers were not really much better
then anywhere else , but you can meet more people , you have all the information
you need in the library , all the records , books are there . And if you wrote an
arrangement , you can quickly organize a band to play for you and check it , and
they have studios for recording , by using these you learn pretty fast .
CP : Do you think as a non-American for approaching jazz , everybody
should go to New York and live there ?
Diederik : No , I don't think it's necessary now , 20 years ago yes .
Nathalie : For me it was the opposite , by the time I decided to study jazz
, they opened the jazz section in conservatory here , so I went there , 'cause my
parents wouldn't think it's a good idea to send their daughter far to US and live
there . plus the jazz education just started here . And by the time I was starting
to play and explore , maybe I missed something that I don't know . I can say there
a lot of possibilities to study jazz nowadays .
CP : But you still got summer jazz camps and master classes here
? People like John Lewis and other countless American jazz musicians who lived here
, did they contribute something ?
Diederik : Sure ! Like what I just said , it's good to have contact with the
people who really grew up in that era like Bebop , and developed their own music
. But you know why they came to here is just they could make more money than in USA
, economically was good for them .
Nathalie : There are not so many American jazz musicians live in Belgium now
, but 20 years ago there were more , Keith Jarrett used to live here in Brussels
, Joe Lovano too , Bill Frisell marries a Belgian wife , and of course Mal Waldron
is living here permanently , so many ! Brussels was like that previously . But Belgium
is desperate for jazz now , in a sense there are lots of festivals even , you know
? But for jazz of "everyday"(earning living by playing jazz) , it is difficult
, you see the Traver's problem , and
in Liege , the jazz clubs were all closed
, so...... that's desperate .
CP : Then that also goes to my next question : How about the support
from your government ? If they really concern about the jazz society or jazz education
? Are they willing to introduce jazz to young students ?
Nathalie : It's very difficult in school education as well , they want to
teach people to use computer than play music , 'cause I just read it on newspaper
yesterday , it's too bad for the situation like this .
CP : It happens in my country too , the councilmen would argue about
spending 2,000,000 franks to buy pianos , then training musicians in 10 years with
fewer success , it's better to use the same amount of money to buy computers to make
people having a job , that's their attitude .
Diederik : But I think the cultural policy all around Europe like France ,
Germany , Holland or Italy are quite OK , yet in Belgium is really bad , we have
to say this , because what she just said is only true for Belgium . For example we
even work more outside of our country , such as in France , there are more than 100
jazz festivals , master classes , clinics , the whole dynamics are bigger .
Nathalie : They are more proud of their culture I think .
Diederik : You know when you go to the city hall here for applying a identity
card or something like that , when they ask your profession , I said musicians when
I was young , they checked the list then told me it doesn't existed in Belgium !
CP : I heard from other professional musicians too , when they finished
their own album , they were afraid of releasing it , because of the tax problem .
Diederik : Yes , for example if you teach and write music as well , then eventually
you gonna pay back to the government by either one income of them . But tha's only
for Belgium , in France they are proud to serve musicians as musicians , they respect
you , in Italy as well .
CP : As far as you started your apprenticeship , learning jazz from
the beginning , have you ever suffer any difficulties ? For us the biggest problem
comes from rhythm , maybe we don't have that in our blood . (Laughs)
Diederik : No , it's not the question of blood , it's the question of culture
, if you grew up by listening to it , then it will become part of you , you just
have to get used to it .
CP : Yeah , we used to lack guidance for approaching and understand
jazz , so first time when we heard John Coltrane , we thought this guy is crazy !
Nathalie : The first I heard modern jazz , I thought it is totally crazy ,
I used to have lessons with an American jazz teacher in Liege , when he gave me a
C7#9.......Aaah ! It's awful !!
Diederik : But just like the first time you listen to modern classical (contemporary)
music , you won't like it either , so you have to learn to appreciate it . And there
are certain chronological concerns as well , for example in classical music you start
with Bach , then Mozart , then...... In jazz it's kind of the same , if you want
to know where the modern jazz come from , then knowing the tradition will help .
Of course , you can always listen to modern jazz whenever you want , but if you want
to be mature and complete , then that's important .
CP : I think sometimes it comes the question like so called "jazz
critics" emphasize too much on Ornette Coleman , Don Cherry , late Coltrane.....
, then they kind of getting rid of Bebop , Hard Bop , the "Old Stuff" ,
so students they follow that , and even thought the way to approach jazz is by reading
all the contemporary music theory books . And one other interesting thing is musicians
like John Zorn , Uri Caine , Courtney Pine are perhaps even much popular than Wynton
Marsalis in Taiwan , 'cause their music attracted Heavy-Metal fan , Classical fan
and Dance music fan as well , the new stuff are always positive , and the traditional
things are just OK for them .
Nathalie : Yes , but maybe it means these music are kind of revolution
for them , and they want to be within also .
Diederik : Everybody follows what critics said , everywhere . But it also
makes me think of something , for example , in Japan , there is still a very big
market for traditional jazz , so many second-rate American jazz musicians can earn
living there . Even like Cedar Walton , Tommy Flanagan , Kenny Drew , Riche Beirach
, they can make their career in Japan , lots of their albums were released exclusively
in Japan .
CP : But Japanese is something different again , their flavor are
really "strange" , you know they appreciate and collect everything ! They
always want everything being complete and fruitful , when you see them release almost
EVERY Blue Note records , you gonna understand it .
Diederik : And isn't it the same in Taiwan ? Actually as I mentioned in the
beginning , if you want to develop the so-called "modern" jazz , it's very
interesting , but I think it's only interesting if you respect the jazz tradition
. However it's difficult for the beginning , you have to study the tradition well
, on the other hand you would try to develop yourself .
Nathalie : But I think both sides are not so separated , it goes together
.
CP : The other thing is the general illusion of European jazz ,
people thought when you say the term , it means ECM music , French Avant-Garde ,
or even only Michel Petrucciani , and German "Hard Stuff" , generally I
observed that people thought European jazz is COLD . So sometimes we got categorized
, some guys even thought we never study traditional stuff in European conservatory
. And there are some ethnic-jazz groups from Eastern Europe or other regions , what
do you think ? Do people describe your music as "world music" as well ,
when you combine the folk elements with jazz ?
Diederik : Well , there are a lot of people writing their own music , which
we call them contemporary jazz composers , but for world music is kind of taking
existing melodies or rhythms , then you build something around them with different
instruments or orchestration . I think one of the differences between European and
American jazz is the former you have more musicians to write their own music , and
in US the traditional things are still based very much on standards , blues , etc.
. And for world music , it concerns more about the folk tradition .
Nathalie : But maybe there are some American jazz musicians who write and
play in European style already , and maybe we have the same thing here , but people
don't know about them because of lacking introduction .
CP : I remember last time you mentioned jazz musicians utilized
20th century classical music theories and concepts , such as Oliver Messiaen is one
of your favorite , do you think European jazz music adapted more from those concepts
?
Diederik : No , I don't think so , Coltrane used them , everybody knows
about them , you can always use the same technique to produce different works , and
plus you can reflect different personality , different culture onto your style .
Let's say Chopin and Schumann all use the same harmony principles , but their music
are strongly different from each other ; When Keith Jarrett plays a II-V , it's not
the same as Tommy Flanagan plays it , but they were all applied from the same theory
or principle .
CP : you always encourage students to compose and write your own
music , do you think it's a important way for finding your own identity ?
Diederik : Yeah , that's what I mean . The difference is while you were improvising
, the notes were gone anyway once you played them , by writing a tune you have to
think about it , put it on the paper , and you have to make decisions , where to
put some ideas or not , it's just like improvising on paper .
CP : Yes , I heard Wayne Shorter emphasized on writing is slowing
down the improvising too , and vise versa . Maybe you can offer us some of your favorite
musicians or your point of view for European jazz scene today ? 'Cause I think you
can not describe European jazz in two words right ? When people ask us , we always
answer that there are varieties .
Diederik : We look it in this way : All around Europe , you have Scandinavia
school , then you got Henri Texier and Louis Sclavis school in France , and in Germany
, England , Eastern Europe , Mediterranean region...... Every country and region
is different and unique ! You want some important names ? I can write them down .
I like Jon Balke's music , I think he is as important as Jan Garbarek for Scandinavia
, or you say ECM kind of , school of playing and composing , you know everybody was
changing upon Garbarek between '80s and '90s , yet I don't understand what he is
doing right now for the voice ensemble . Maybe the Dutch pianist Misha
Mengelberg , he is old too , and he stays in US now . But for Jacques Loussier
, who claims to play Bach in jazz style , I thinks he gave us a good example for
please not to do it ! (Laughs) Because to digest different music styles well first
is better than putting everything together with bad taste , the music should be honest
as well .
Nathalie : You should listen to Django Bate's live , he is crazy , the music
goes everywhere , and the solo is unbelievable ! I heard him once and we almost laughed
to die ! Our drummer friend Hans couldn't help but keep "rolling" on the
ground and couldn't stop laughing , 'cause it's too funny and full of surprises !
Who else...... Richard Galliano is good too , since there is a strong tradition in
the French accordion music .
( Diederik and Nathalie started to write some names of important European jazz
musicians , sometimes they would have some slight arguments for indicating names
, or pointed out for each other if they miss someone , yet that's quite normal !
)
CP : Lastly , but not the least , maybe you have some final opinions
or thought in your mind to share in the end of our conversation ?
Diederik : We are living in an interesting era today , because of the global
communications are far more easier than before , things like Internet , satellite
, media & quicker aircraft are more and more common , so the exchanges of different
cultures and combinations of different music styles occur all the time , the whole
world are getting closer , so the future should definitely be different . On the
other hand , we can not even study all kinds of music in our life time , although
knowing the more the better , but for example if we want to learn Chinese traditional
music , maybe it gonna take us another 20 years for digging into it , but at least
try to appreciate the values , that's important . In fact , for learning process
, there is no miracle , the only way to catch it is always digging it .
Nathalie : I think for learning any kind of music , there are a lot of schools
available now , which maybe can shorten the time , but the most important thing is
still to make it become natural for yourself , don't feel so many pressure and think
too intellectually , you see when children learn to speak , they learn it unconsciously
and improve gradually , but for adults is harder to learn things , 'cause there are
so many information around and it's difficult to concentrate , although we need to
, it just take us some time .
Pan-Scandinavia ( Includes Northern Europe , Germany
, Great Britain and neighbor regions ) -
Jon Balke , Jan Garbarek , John Taylor , Bobo Stenson , Nils Peter Molvaer , Django
Bates , Kenny Wheeler , Gordon Beck , Norma Winstone , John Surman
Pan-Mediterranean ( Includes France , Italy , Spain , Portugal
and neighbor regions ) -
Maria Joao , Mario Laginha , Martial Solal , Enrico Pieranunzi , Chano Dominguez
, Paolo Fresu , Louis Sclavis , Henri Texier , Richard Galliano
